With a decade of experience in Higher Education, particularly with educational administration and counseling, Tammy Tran shares how she helps college students overcome obstacles in an academic setting. Tune in to hear what tips and advice she has for college students to achieve academic and personal success — check out the podcast player on Mental Power Hacks or watch Tammy Tran's Imagine Talks Podcast interview on YouTube.
Steven Chan: Hi, everyone, I'm here today with Tammy Tran, one of our co-hosts at Imagine Talks podcasts. She is part of the Student Success Center at the University of San Francisco, USF, and she's here today to talk about topics relating to student success, common challenges, struggles, tips for management, and useful resources, too. Welcome, Tammy.
Tammy Tran: Thank you for having me.
Steven Chan: So, Tammy, tell us a little bit about yourself and the work that you've done.
Tammy Tran: I work at the University of San Francisco, specifically in a department called the Center for Academic and Student Achievement. In this office, we help support students both academically and personally. And what that specifically means is we help students navigate throughout the education system, within our university, from when they're freshmen all the way to their senior year.
Steven Chan: So, the whole gamut then.
Tammy Tran: Yes.
Steven Chan: And how many students have you guided in the past?
Tammy Tran: So, I've worked in the education system for about a decade now.
Steven Chan: Oh, wow.
Tammy Tran: And I help thousands, tens of thousands of students, at least in our university, both in like College of Arts and Sciences, School of Management, Nursing, and Education.
Steven Chan: That's impressive.
Why is it important to keep an open mind?
Steven Chan: Tens of thousands of students with your coaching and your guidance. And, you yourself, like with the work that you do, how have you weaved in your vision of your own life vision? What is the future that you see, the future that you want to reach, with your work?
Tammy Tran: Well, for my life vision, I want people to be at least, open-minded to a lot of things, keep themselves, keep opportunities that they would have ignored, open.
Steven Chan: Yeah, and you do you often have a lot of — I mean — you mentioned challenges and struggles that a lot of students face too. But, do they sometimes close the door on opportunities?
Tammy Tran: They do. A lot of students tend to have a particular idea about a certain field or a topic or career path. And so, they close themselves to other opportunities that are very similar or that they would more likely be excellent at, than what they've chosen and might think is the right thing.
Steven Chan: So, your job then [is to] broaden their views in life. You help them become open-minded to opportunities that they would have otherwise dismissed or ignored then.
Tammy Tran: Exactly.
Sticking to the pre-med, pre-nurse, pre-pharm track—and nothing else
Steven Chan: And I don’t suppose there are any sort of common examples of how this comes about? Is there a common thread or a common scenario where a student comes to you?
Tammy Tran: Yes. So, for example, take premeds, right?
Steven Chan: Oh, yes. Pre-meds.
Tammy Tran: Yeah. They think, “If I want to be premed, I have to be in biology or some sort of science major and I have to take certain classes and do volunteer work within the health field. And the only paths that are available is to become a doctor or a nurse, and nothing else.”
Steven Chan: That's it?!
Tammy Tran: Yeah, basically. That’s generally a lot of students’ ideas of what “premed” is.
Steven Chan: Oh yeah.
Tammy Tran: Or just going to pharmaceuticals, but like three paths. That’s it. Our job is to help them see: you know, there is a plethora of other health professional jobs and opportunities out there that don't just direct towards the doctor route, or the nursing route, or the pharmacist route. There’s plenty of other things you can get into and that you might actually be more interested in.
Steven Chan: So, when they do come with this, you know, this struggle, or I mean, how does it manifest? Do people come to you on their own and ask about career choices? Or, do they usually come in with some sort of other complaint, like a grade problem?
Tammy Tran: It's like 50/50, to be completely honest.
Steven Chan: Yeah.
Tammy Tran: Some students will come of their own volition because they're curious. They want to get as much help as possible, and they hear about our office, our department. And our department is mainly pitched as the office that helps supports you in whatever question you may have, or if you're struggling personally or academically, or you have some other issue that maybe your major adviser or your career adviser or immigration adviser can’t help you with. And so, there is your CASA adviser that can help you. Your CASA adviser is generally termed your academic success coach. So, basically helping you reach success.
Steven Chan: Interesting. So actually, you mentioned CASA. What is — for folks who are not as familiar with what CASA is — what does CASA stand for?
Tammy Tran: CASA stands for Center for Academic and Student Achievement, which is the department that I work for. To abbreviate it, it’s CASA. But then, also it's like the Spanish term where “CASA” is for home. So, we're like your place away from home is also how we like to pitch ourselves to students.
Steven Chan: I think we've talked to you in the past before a little bit about CASA. You've told me in the past that CASA is to help promote student success in college and to also have a safe and non-judgmental place for students to grow and navigate the college experience.
Tammy Tran: And we generally want students to feel like it's a place where there's no judgment. We'll accept you however you are, whatever your problems are, and guide you towards the best path there is for you as a person, not as just a student, but as a person, so you reach the most optimal part of your life.
Steven Chan: Yeah, and this is like a very, very challenging time. I imagine you mentioned that 50 percent. I mean, you said 50 percent of the students come to you.
Tammy Tran: Of their own volition. Yes.
Steven Chan: Of their own volition. What about the other 50 percent?
Tammy Tran: The other group, they come either through referrals or they have some sort of issue, whether it's mental or personal or medical or something completely different, to which they are directed over to our office. Also, if they perform academically like “not well”, then they come over to us in our office. And, we start to, like, meet with them on a weekly or biweekly kind of basis to really figure out what is it that is blocking them from being academically successful. And that's where we sort of get into like their own personal lives, their views. What is it that they are expecting? What are their goals as opposed to their parents’ goals for them in life?
Steven Chan: Oh, that's interesting.
Tammy Tran: Yeah, so the parents’ goals that they're trying to follow.
Do parents force their college-age children to enter healthcare professions?
Steven Chan: So, I imagine premeds, that premedical route, a lot of students want to go into the health care professions. And is that something that you’re finding that a lot of students come to you with the goal of going to these professions, when it turns out that it's actually their parents who want them to go through this?
Tammy Tran: If I were to break it down, it would be like probably 40 to 45 percent of these students are doing it because of their parents?
Steven Chan: Ohhh, yeah. Is that bad? Is that necessarily a bad thing, if they want to follow what their parents want them to do?
Tammy Tran: It is not bad if they don't know what they want to do. They don't even have their own goals or visions in life. They're just following what their parents want. We try to help them as much as we can, as much as they're willing to be open with us, to guide them to what they feel like, “Oh, this is the actual path that I want to take. This is actually what I'm interested in.”
But other times, it's like, these students don't want to do it. They're doing it because their parents want them to do it. And they're not good at it, which is why they're not doing academically well. It's not within their expertise. No matter how hard they try, they can't grasp the concept to be able to do one of those courses.
Steven Chan: So, how can they? You mentioned that a lot of the students would pursue this if it were part of their goals — if it were part of their vision. But do they necessarily know how to set goals or a vision for themselves, versus — you mentioned the parents’ goals? Do they know how to distinguish, or do you have to guide them sometimes?
Tammy Tran: We have to guide them, most of the time. Because students again, like — in our beginning conversation — they don't really know what they want to do or they have preconceptions of what this, like, premed route is going to be.
Steven Chan: Mm hmm.
Tammy Tran: And there's only so much research you can do. So, it’s more helpful to talk to somebody who has experience, or knows what the actual procedure is going to be like and what to expect from it.
How to discover your true calling
Steven Chan: So, if you had a message, or thing that you often teach students, for finding this vision and finding these goals, is there something that you would advise people or advise students who might be listening right now?
Tammy Tran: Yeah, I would. The first and foremost thing is...actually go out there and volunteer within that field to find out if that's even something you want to do. Because what I found a lot with these students is they go through the whole thing. And when they're in their senior year — or junior year — they start to volunteer and go into the field to really find out [what it’s like]. They later come out thinking, “Oh, my God, this is not what I thought it was actually going to be!” And you're already in your senior or junior year! There's only so much you can do afterward. You can't exactly switch to a different major if you find out this is not what I want to do.
Steven Chan: This is better to do that in your freshman year? Your first and second year?
Tammy Tran: It's better to go into like a volunteer experience or an internship within the field, get some sort of exposure, and talk to a bunch of people to really figure out what it is that you're looking for. If you're trying to go down the medical route, is this really what you want to do as a doctor/nurse? Is what your conception is of a doctor/nurse really how it is in life? Is this what you're looking forward to?
Steven Chan: So, people who go into medicine, I mean, often are very hardworking and they are very dedicated. But would your advice also apply to other career paths too?
Tammy Tran: It generally does because, at least, if we catch them really early, they can definitely go down different majors or paths. And we generally direct them, “What is it that you like? What don't you like? Have you tried this yet? We haven't tried this yet; before you knock it off, try it, and then later see that, “OK? If you really don't like it, that's it.” And cross it off the list.
But for people who are in their junior or senior year who are in this position or say, “Gosh, I'm not into this major or this career path. What do I do?” What we generally tell them is, “OK, you're in your junior or senior year, you are so close to graduating with this major. So, why don't you go ahead and finish with this major, but don't let that major define you because your major in college doesn't necessarily mean that that's what you're going to be in life.”
“So, you can do your major. Go through with it, but find internships, find other programs, get a minor, like, go into a class that you find very interesting. Talk to the professors — the department — and see what other things there are for you to get into while you're just completing your major.”
Steven Chan: I really like that message. And you're offering people this hope that there are options that people can pursue in life and that they're not sort of necessarily wedded or defined by one particular major. They can explore other things even after college or at the end.
Tammy Tran: Yeah. And for whatever it is, we do have resources that we are affiliated with or know about. And then, we send the students to those affiliations, or to a link and say, “Try this. Maybe you'll like this. If you don't, come back and let us know. We'll work with you to find something else. But you don't have to feel as though you're tied down to one thing.”
Can you go at it alone? Do you really need help from others?
Tammy Tran: There are other messages also, like, “You want to meet as many people as possible.”
Steven Chan: What do you mean by that?
Tammy Tran: What I mean by that is, if you have a goal, then you should go out there within that field, talk to people, build your relationship with them because you want to build also your network. So, the more people you know within different fields, the more opportunities you'll be able to be open to, and have offered to you.
Steven Chan: This is such a strong message. So, I'm hearing from you, like, a lot of what you do to coach people and their success is to encourage them to get a lot of personal, in-depth experience with what they are hoping to achieve. And this doesn't necessarily apply to premeds, but also any sort of other career paths.
Tammy Tran: It applies to everyone, every student. It doesn't matter what major you are, or what career path you're looking into. It's very important to know that you aren't tied down to whatever you “define” as your major. And it's always good to build your network because you never know when that's going to come in handy.
Steven Chan: The network? So why is that important? You know, especially for shy people, I imagine that there are a lot of folks who may have been taught — a lot of students and a lot of also early career professionals. They're taught that if they work hard, and they do what they're told, that's success. Is that enough or is networking something that they need to do?
Tammy Tran: I think that success is defined by the person. If they feel like they work hard, they get to a specific place and they're satisfied with it, then that itself is successful. And there's no judgment from us to say, “That's not success.” If you think that’s success, then that is. And we're more than happy to congratulate you, and make you feel like you achieved your goal, because you did! But for other people, it is important for them to at least be social. Because, say they want to do one thing, they do it for a while, but then they find out, “Oh man, I really don't like this, I want to move somewhere else!” It's good to have a social network where they can talk to somebody else about different things or say — we're going to go back to this premed thing — say this person is premed, finds out they don't like it, but then they find a love for computer science.
Steven Chan: Mm hmm.
Tammy Tran: It's good to have or know people within that field, so then they can guide you as to, “what sort of path there is within computer science?” Because computer science is a general umbrella. Other career paths within it could be a software engineer, a data scientist, or whatnot. It is good to know and have people in your address book that you can contact.
Steven Chan: Yes, yes. I like that message. It's something that I know you've talked to us before our podcast, about how to draw inspiration. You can draw inspiration and education from a lot of different people: “friends, family, colleagues, and mentors,” is what you've told me that you, yourself, personally do. But also gathering a lot of data, and a lot of data points about a decision. And the data points can include other people's observations and other people's stories, but also sort of that personal experience too. So, with that, I'm hearing from you [that] one of the struggles that students have is about how to make an informed career decision and how to get those data points.
Mental health & mental illness can impact college student performance
Steven Chan: Are there other struggles that you've seen students face in the undergraduate setting that they come to you and ask you for advice about?
Tammy Tran: Yes, they are actually like way more than just what we talked about. One of the other biggest ones is mental illness that they come to us about. A lot of it is depression, anxiety. Those are the two biggest ones that we have with our students. So they come to us to find out how can we help them with their academics and mediate between instructors, helping them talk to their professors or their advisors, or how to go about doing that so that they can have some sort of accommodation.
Students are at all different levels in college. Some of them are confident enough to talk to their advisers or their professors themselves. Others are not. Some of them are a little bit more abrasive about it. And so, they go about it the wrong way. So we're there to help guide them: “OK, this is how you should be talking to this specific professor or this adviser,” because we do have a good rapport with those professors and advisers. And we deal with them enough to know how they feel about certain things and how to approach them.
So, it's nice for the students to come in. We will either help talk to them, to their advisers on their behalf, if they're going through something like difficult, mentally. And, at least for them when they come to us, they know it's a safe, nonjudgmental place where they can say stuff. And we are actually equipped to help these students because a lot of our coaches have a background in counseling. So, we know how to deal with these types of students and help them calm down, find a place where it's comfortable enough for them to, for lack of a better term, “spill their guts” about whatever it is they feel is going on in their life, where they feel comfortable at.
Steven Chan: So, you mentioned there is a particular ... there could be a right way to approach a professor or instructor, and then there may be a wrong way! You mentioned it. So what's the right way and what's the wrong way that you could feel comfortable describing to us?
Tammy Tran: Sure. So, one right way of talking to an instructor is either approaching them — and actually approaching them politely — and acknowledging them like “You're an authority figure, you’re my instructor, you’re my adviser, or whatnot. And I respect you. And I want to come and tell you I have these sorts of symptoms and I need certain accommodations. Would you be so kind as to work with me on that? And give me those sorts of accommodations because of my mental illness, or my whatever illness I have.” So, that's one of like a good approach, which some students are able to do.
A wrong approach, and I have to two...
Steven Chan: OK, this is going to be good. I got to hear this one.
Tammy Tran: One abrasive way is to come off very privileged and as like “you're MY instructor or MY adviser.” And our school is a private school, so they pay a lot of money. Therefore, they sort of feel entitled to have certain services.
So, what I've seen a few students actually do is come off to an instructor demanding that they treat them and give them accommodations as they’re there to serve the students, which is not the right way to approach anyone at all! Because you already turn off the person from wanting to help you in the first place, and you're not giving any sort of respect to a person who you're asking help for. That's the really abrasive one.
The second one is giving the instructor or adviser no contact at all or waiting until the very last minute to make demands. It's too late to do anything, but still demand[ing] something of them and then show[ing] them a bunch of “medical” documentation and pressur[ing] them into doing what they want.
Steven Chan: Wow.
Tammy Tran: Yeah. So you see there are wrong ways to approach the professor and adviser!
Steven Chan: And you can totally extrapolate. Well, I know we're chuckling about this, but this is quite serious because this is when you're going through life beyond high school and you're trying to approach someone who is in a position of authority for accommodations or resources — resources meaning like funds for your projects or time for your projects. I can imagine that the first-way approach is the way to go and to do it in a respectful manner with ample time, and a neutral but a better proposal, versus the abrasive method or the procrastinator's method.
Tammy Tran: Exactly, which we see a lot of actually and unfortunately. There are students who actually approach it correctly, which is really nice. And with those students, they get a lot more out of their relationship with their professor and adviser because they're willing to help the students a lot more. Plus, going back to it, it's a good way to get them to be in your social network because they're also working professionals who are experts in their field. So, they would know a lot more if you are a lot more respectful of them.
Steven Chan: I like that. You know, that actually, that's something I, myself, when I was going through undergraduate, I never really thought about. And I admit, I did this one and a half decades ago, but with approaching professors as if they were going to be part of my future social network, it's always good to ensure that you act in a professional manner and not go down in flames.
Tammy Tran: We've had those and you don't want to burn any bridges with people who can potentially help you out later on in the future.
Steven Chan: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Wow, there’s a lot to unpack. You've taught us today about how setting a vision, you know, talking about mission and goals is important, but also having that informed by experiences. And it sounds like — I didn't use this term earlier, but little life experiments. You're saying that people should try things like volunteering or collecting stories from other people.
Tammy Tran: That or internships.
Steven Chan: Oh, internships, yes. You said that your office specifically has some connections. And then some students may not have those connections. I don't know if that scenario has ever come up where a student doesn't have access to internships or doesn't have access to people?
Tammy Tran: Yeah, so we do go through our own affiliations with people, like personal affiliations, especially if we feel like, “Oh, the student is a really good student. We really want to support them. We know what their goals are exactly.” And it totally aligns with this personal connection I have with somebody else and within the field that the student is interested in.” We don't mind connecting them with those people. Of course, we give them the talk saying, “I'm going to connect you with this person, please be respectful and respond to them in a professional manner. But then also make sure that you don't do anything that may seem impolite to them or unprofessional to them because then that can affect your future relationship with this person or relationship with me, because...”
Steven Chan: With the school, you mean?
Tammy Tran: No, with the coach, generally because it's a personal connection, right?
Steven Chan: Ah, OK.
Tammy Tran: That will come back to me and I will hear about it. I will talk to you about it. So, it's basically please be professional. Don't be unprofessional because it will come back to me.
Steven Chan: It'll haunt you!
Tammy Tran: Yeah! But also, there's just like, “even though I'm connecting you with this person, there are no guarantees with anything! Just keep note of that in the back of your mind because you want to make a very good impression. But that's all on you. The only thing that I can do is connect you with this person and introduce you. I can't give you a job. That's up to that person to decide. So, I want you to act professional and respectful, and do you. And then hopefully, it'll turn into something, but don't do anything disrespectful because I will hear it!”
Final advice from a San Francisco-based college student academic coach
Steven Chan: Yeah, wise words, absolutely wise words. You know, a lot of students, I imagine, who are listening to us right now. I was wondering if you had any — as we wrap up our time together — are there any advice or any sort of wise wisdom — success tidbits or tips — that you could give to our listeners?
Tammy Tran: So, as we talked about it in our talk right now, it's just: keep your mind and your eyes open. Don't close them to any potential opportunities. Even though you think you might not like it, if you haven't tried it, don't knock it. Try it and then see because you never know if that can lead to something else. I've known people who change their careers from like a doctor to a shoemaker — or a shoe designer to be more exact — because she found it a lot more engaging and exciting for her. It fit her passions to the T, as opposed to being a doctor. And that's something she tried later on in life. She said, “I was always interested in design. I just didn't because, you know, I'm following [through] with my parents’ views, and their goals of what I wanted to be — didn't really follow mine.”
And now that she became it, she fulfilled her parents’ goals. But now, she wanted to fulfill her own, which is to be a designer, and she became a shoe designer. She's way happier than being a doctor. And, I think to me, that is being successful. Right? Doing something you love and are passionate about.
Steven Chan: That is phenomenal. That's phenomenal. Yeah, I got to say, you've helped tens of thousands of students in the past. You've seen careers grow and blossom. So it's that topic of parental pressure and expectations. That's a whole ‘nother podcast! Maybe a whole series in itself! So, we got to have you back and we will have you back because you're one of our co-hosts for Imagine Talks. But we're very lucky to hear from you about student success, and the Student Success Center at the University of San Francisco in the midst of one of the world's intellectual capitals. So, thank you, Tammy, for your time.
Tammy Tran: Thank you, Steve. It was really nice to talk to you. And I'm looking forward to talking more about the parental views on this and being a helicopter parent. We have a lot of those!
Steven Chan: Oh, my gosh. We got to ask you about that. You know, amongst our Imagine Talks — that's a very common theme amongst our speakers. So, helicopter parents and parental expectations. We got to hear more about this and in future episodes. Yeah, and we'll wrap it up right now.
Tammy Tran: All right. Great. Thank you.